View Thread

  • 1.  Defining Sustainability ... and the eye of the beholder

    Posted 05-06-2006 11:07
    Dear ONE folks -

    I guess it all depends on one's perspective.

    Jon's forceful statement has flushed me out of my closet at least long
    enough to express my thanks for this delightful thread over the last two
    days.

    As a complete neophyte in this domain, I have found the flowing discussion
    interesting and richly provocative. Admittedly I know very, very little,
    but I have leaned a lot from your messages. I especially appreciate all
    those folks who have been so generous with references and citations.

    Thank you all for an open, caring, and richly collaborative conversation.
    [And thank you, Jon, for stimulating me to express my appreciation.]

    Warm regards,

    Jim Stoner
    Professor of Management Systems and
    chairholder: James A.F. Stoner Chair in Global Sustainability
    Graduate School of Business - room 616A
    Fordham University
    113 W. 60th Street
    New York, NY 10023
    USA

    .



    Jon Entine
    <runjonrun@EARTHL
    INK.NET> To
    Sent by: ONE-L@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Organizations and cc
    the Natural
    Environment Subject
    Discussion Re: Defining Sustainability
    <ONE-L@AOMLISTS.P
    ACE.EDU>


    05/06/2006 10:14
    AM


    Please respond to
    Organizations and
    the Natural
    Environment
    Discussion
    <ONE-L@AOMLISTS.P
    ACE.EDU>






    Calling on critical thinkers...

    Let's go back to empirical reality 101...

    Does anyone actually have metrics to define "sustainability"?

    Otherwise, with all due respect, this is all circular reasoning (something
    is sustainable because it's sustainable).

    I honestly don't mean this to be unduly provocative. It just that not one
    "definition" proposed so far would pass the "bull----" test in any place
    other than a so-called business ethics list group.

    It's even more depressing than reading what's being said in defense of the
    current, rightwing version of CSR promoted by social investors and their
    enablers.

    Without measurable and agreeable standards, these discussions are little
    more than academic pornography.

    PS: I'll try to remain vigilant...

    --

    Jon Entine
    http://www.jonentine.com

    (513) 527-4385
    cell: 319-8388
    FAX: 527-4386


  • 2.  Defining Sustainability ... and the eye of the beholder

    Posted 05-06-2006 16:53
    Dear Friends:

    Nigel's post provoked me to think about my occasional discomfort with
    the term "sustainable" and I turned to the economic movement called
    General Equilibrium. That movement, still dominant in much of the
    world, was a response to fears of economic Depressions. To avoid the
    downsides, economists and their fellow travelers in the policy world
    tried to build systems that prevented bad things. What we have found
    out, and as Joseph Schumpeter pointed out during the last Great
    Depression, success in that effort also costs us some good things like
    creativity, improvements, positive change. When we focus on minimizing
    the downside risks, we tend to also minimize the upside, creating a
    static version of the status quo. Schumpeter rejected that, being much
    more interested in figuring out what causes improvements.

    Sustainability sounds a lot like an ecological version of General
    Equilibrium -- like we are aiming at a minimal steady state. Granted,
    that threshold is probably better than we are achieving in many facets
    of human activity now, but is it the right kind of goal? Like
    Schumpeter, I'm more interested in the things that make us better, not
    in a specific target, an unreachable asymptote.

    Is sustainability the best to which we can aspire? I'd like to think
    we can aim higher, above that threshold. Much of human history is
    defined by our attempts to improve things. Such basic things as
    gardening, scientific research, engineering, exploration, cooking,
    architecture -- the marks of human history are those of improvements.
    So, for me, and accepting Nigel's definitions, sustainability is a type
    of minimum goal.

    I'd like to see our schools have goals that aim at doing better than
    the ecological minimum. We have lots of evidence of environmental
    damage. We have some idea of what break-even would be like. What's
    beyond that? Where are humans acting in ways that improve the ecology
    of this planet? Do we have some examples of that already? (Yup, I
    think so, but I'm looking forward to the debate!) That's what we should
    be aiming at in our research, and what we should be teaching in our
    schools.

    Just stirring the pot on a fragrant and humid Louisiana afternoon...

    Best regards,

    Tom.


    Prof. Thomas A. Bryant, Ph.D.
    The Bollinger Family Endowed Chair in Entrepreneurship
    Nicholls State University, Thibodaux, LA 70310, USA
    Tel: (985) 448-4179; e-mail: tom.bryant@nicholls.edu


  • 3.  Defining Sustainability ... and the eye of the beholder

    Posted 05-07-2006 16:56
    Dear Tom,

    in open response to your comments. Now in my view there is a link between
    your notions of aspirational goals and my views on sustainability. So
    much of present-day transition to sustainability is about minimising the
    resource demands of existing activities, which involve mild forms of
    innovation but are hardly aspirational and inspiring. I would contend
    that the only substantive way to a 'close to sustainable' future will
    involve great human ingenuity and technological and social innovation.
    That is really aspirational because it will require such radical
    technological and social change, courage and wisdom.

    Indeed the changes envisioned if we truly seek this goal would make the
    NASA space-venture look like the commitment by a child to the building of
    a sand castle and a balmy summers day.

    Maybe what we need is the same type of leadership Kennedy gave when
    commiting the US to its space mission. If that leadership was good enough
    for space surely something bolder, more innovative and more challenging is
    no less than the Earth and its inhabitants deserve. Given this thought
    where indeed are the leaders?? And why do they niot come forward?

    Nigel Roome

    > > > Dear Friends:
    >
    > Nigel's post provoked me to think about my occasional discomfort with
    > the term "sustainable" and I turned to the economic movement called
    > General Equilibrium. That movement, still dominant in much of the
    > world, was a response to fears of economic Depressions. To avoid the
    > downsides, economists and their fellow travelers in the policy world
    > tried to build systems that prevented bad things. What we have found
    > out, and as Joseph Schumpeter pointed out during the last Great
    > Depression, success in that effort also costs us some good things like
    > creativity, improvements, positive change. When we focus on minimizing
    > the downside risks, we tend to also minimize the upside, creating a
    > static version of the status quo. Schumpeter rejected that, being much
    > more interested in figuring out what causes improvements.
    >
    > Sustainability sounds a lot like an ecological version of General
    > Equilibrium -- like we are aiming at a minimal steady state. Granted,
    > that threshold is probably better than we are achieving in many facets
    > of human activity now, but is it the right kind of goal? Like
    > Schumpeter, I'm more interested in the things that make us better, not
    > in a specific target, an unreachable asymptote.
    >
    > Is sustainability the best to which we can aspire? I'd like to think
    > we can aim higher, above that threshold. Much of human history is
    > defined by our attempts to improve things. Such basic things as
    > gardening, scientific research, engineering, exploration, cooking,
    > architecture -- the marks of human history are those of improvements.
    > So, for me, and accepting Nigel's definitions, sustainability is a type
    > of minimum goal.
    >
    > I'd like to see our schools have goals that aim at doing better than
    > the ecological minimum. We have lots of evidence of environmental
    > damage. We have some idea of what break-even would be like. What's
    > beyond that? Where are humans acting in ways that improve the ecology
    > of this planet? Do we have some examples of that already? (Yup, I
    > think so, but I'm looking forward to the debate!) That's what we should
    > be aiming at in our research, and what we should be teaching in our
    > schools.
    >
    > Just stirring the pot on a fragrant and humid Louisiana afternoon...
    >
    > Best regards,
    >
    > Tom.
    >
    >
    > Prof. Thomas A. Bryant, Ph.D.
    > The Bollinger Family Endowed Chair in Entrepreneurship
    > Nicholls State University, Thibodaux, LA 70310, USA
    > Tel: (985) 448-4179; e-mail: tom.bryant@nicholls.edu
    >